El-Notan and Tatyana Abramov Interviewed by Vida Baron January 10, 2000 This is Monday, January 10, 2000. This is Vida Baron meeting with El-Notan and Tatyana in their home. We're going to do an oral history for the new Southwest Jewish Archives. We're sitting in their living room sipping our tea. VB  First, if you would, tell me about your immediate family. You, yourself, your ages, where you came from, how you got here. Tatyana, do you want to start? T  Yes. Our families is of 4. We have two children, two sons. The eldest one is Roman, he is 17 years old and the youngest is Misha. He is 13 years old. I am their mother, my name is Tatyana and I am 44 years old. My husband is 51 years old. So we came here in 1997 from Tashkent, this is Uzbekistan from Soviet Union Republic. Now it's an independent state. We came here Jewish Family Services. HIAS invited us to come here to Tucson. VB   Do you have family here? El-Notan did you have family in the states When you came. EN   You mean relatives? Yes, I have many relatives but they live in New York. I have a sister and many other relatives in New York. VB   Were they your sponsors When you came to this country? EN   No, they couldn't. They, themselves are refugees. They only began to live here in United States. You mean sponsored ... VB   Were they here prior to your coming. Before you came were they here in New York? EN   You mean by money? VB   No. To come here you needed to have either parents or sisters or children, so they did that paperwork for you. EN   Yes VB   And then you came from New York to Tucson. And you had no family here When you came. EN   No. VB   OK. Tell me what you did in the former Soviet Union. What was your training, your education, your background, your profession. EN   I was born in Buchava and Buchava is the oldest city in central Asia. It is 2,500 years. I lived there for 7 years then my family moved to Dushambe. Dushambe is the capital of Dazikistan. I went to school there and then I went to college of art. At college I entered into Tashkent, capital of Uzbekistan. After graduation I worked in art. VB   You're saying art like drawing, painting? EN   Sculpture. At college I was a painter. And I wanted to continue to study painting but I was not permitted to have painting class because as I was told I was not Uzbeck person. No, but even Russian people couldn't enter that faculty, that department. Only Uzbeck people. VB   So you couldn't study painting because you were not from Uzbekistan. EN   No, I was an Uzbek. You know I was born in Uzbekistan but I was not Uzbeck nationality. VB   Nationality was not Uzbek. That's what I meant. OK. Did anyone say it was because you were Jewish? EN   No. You know nobody told you officially that you are Jewish. Only meant that nobody could say... T  It was like something [else]. VB   Was your paperwork stamped...what did your passport say? EN   Jewish. VB   And you feel that's why you were not allowed to go to those classes? EN   Yes. And I had to go to ceramics classes. I liked it but after, when I received my grades,I had very low mark. So I failed. My relatives told me that they gave me the lowest grade because my father went to Israel. VB   He who was living there. EN   Had left for Israel. VB   What year was this? EN   He left in 1972 and I made my diploma in 1973. I didn't believe them because I was, you know, patriotic for my country, and they didn't believe that Communist system would be so cruel. I didn't believe it. But in a year I was told openly that I was. My grade was very bad because my father went to Israel. Why? There was a lower organization. It's like the Communist party but for younger people. They asked me "why didn't you go to Israel?" and I told them "I never thought about going there." And after their talk I understood that KGB made a visit to the institution to fail my diploma. But my project was published in German. It was exhibited in the first Uzbek sculpture exhibition. So actually I was successful. But I stayed under very deep depression for the whole year. It was very difficult time. I thought I was nothing and it was very difficult. Even my relatives said it's impossible to study for 10 years and to fail the diploma. But my mother only believed me. VB   Mothers are that way. Was your mother with your father in Israel? EN   No. My father left me When I was 7 years old. I went not to regular school, what it's called. VB   Boarding school. EN   Boarding school, because we were four children and my mother was alone and there was no relatives in Dushanbe, very difficult to work, to bring us up, the children. then, after graduation, I began work as a public artist. Certainly, I have many difficulties because I was a Jewish person. But there was some successful. My works were exhibited in all union exhibitions and published in all the union magazines. Later on I participated in first American and Russian ceramic sculpture. There is a publication in American -- I can show you. VB   I'd love to see it. EN   I was invited to Norway, in Oslo there was an international conference. And I myself I organized four international symposiums in Tashkent. We created to surrounding park in Tashkent. And then in 1991 I was invited to New York to participate in an exhibition and in 1997 I was invited to United States universities and colleges for workshops. VB   Did it take you a long time to get permission to come here? EN   Yes, actually, you know, I applied to move in 1989 and in 1991 I called Washington to find out about my documents and they said that they had my documents and suggested to wait. So I wait for about 8 years. VB   That's a very long time to wait. EN   Because at that time I have no... VB   First degree relatives? EN   Yes. VB   I want to get back to what you told me. It's wonderful. But I also want to get a little bit of Tatyana's background and then we'll go back and forth if that's OK. So Tatyana, tell me about yourself. T   I was born in Dnepropetroesk, a city it's Ukraine. It's a pretty big industrial city in Ukraine. I was born there and I graduated there. My mother actually was a worker. I don't know, I mean I didn't have the chance to know my grandmother because she died in World War II. My mother got alone When she was 18 years old. So I saw her pictures and my mother told me about her. then after I was graduated from school I entered college for my light industry, I don't know how to say it. VB   You don't mean like fixtures. T   Clothes and fashion design and textiles. After I was graduated I had an award to enter the university and I entered St. Petersburg University. It was called Leningrad then. And I was graduated from there. There was a special rule in the Soviet Union there. When you are graduated from the institute you have to go to certain place and work there for two or three years. You can either have a choice someplace to go work or you have to go. Luckily I had option and although my mother really worked, didn't need to come back home and live and work there, but I was a kind of independent person and I wanted to see other places. And I wanted to start my independent life. I went to Almatta, Khazikstan. This is Asian state. I worked there in big fashion company and I had friends there. I met El-Notan there. Our common friends, so I met him there. After I worked for year in Almatta we got married and moved to Tashkent. Then I had my first baby. While I was bringing them up I didn't have a really, a lot of chances to work, to upgrade skills. But then after I started working after they got older, I started working and for the last five, four years I had my private studio and I was making custom-made clothes. On one hand it was very good and very interesting and very challenging. On the other hand it was very difficult to run my own business. VB   What made it difficult? T   Because I didn't have any support from the government. I had to do it. EN   You know, actually, many friends of mine have their own business. But after a few years, one or two years, they have to close business because it was very difficult and actually the government didn't do anything to develop private business. VB   When you were going to school did you have any problems going where you wanted to go to school? T  You mean when I was going to high school? VB   High school and university and after that. T  No, I didn't. VB   Tell me about, both of you, whichever one, about your parents, your grandparents, what you know about your family backgrounds. Their names, what they were from, what they did, what their life was like. EN   My grandfather on father's side, his name was El-Notan, born in 1919, no 1900. He was killed in 1920 because he was young businessman. He made a trade from Afganistan. T  He was a trader. EN   ...from Afganistan to Bukhara. His trip was successful but when he came to Bukara the people who supported his small trip, very dangerous trip, took a receipt from him, that they made him sign, and then they killed him and grabbed all the things. T  They robbed him. VB   Do you know what he was trading? EN   I don't know. And my grandfather from my mother's side, was a capitalist. At the beginning of the century there was, in central Asia, capitalism being developed, and he had a factory, a cotton factory. He was a very rich man. My grandmother, sorry, I am talking about great grandparents. So my grandmother told me, showed me some photos, that they had a very big trip around the world on the ship. So they were actually rich. VB   I would guess. Around what time? EN   1910, before 1924 when Soviet Army came to power. So my mother was born in the prison because rich people from rich family was sent to prison. By the way, my mother died in prison when my eldest son was born. In same year my mother died, in 1982. Actually, it is absolutely true, she was put in the prison because she was, how you say, violent. Because she was, actually she didn't do anything against the law. She was a dentist. In order to support our education she worked besides, official work she worked at home and helped people with teeth. There was a man in Chamberg who had gold and then they couldn't prove that he had it so they joined some other Jewish people and made a trial in court. But there was no any evidence. When my mother was 53 she was sent to prison and she died there in a year. T  We got married in 1980, or 81, and she was ... EN   She was about two years actually. You know, actually, almost every Soviet family survived from the Soviet system. That's why I consider myself and my family as everybody. It was not easy for every people, especially for Jewish. VB   What did they accuse your mother of doing? Why did they put her in prison? EN   Because in Soviet Union it was prohibited to do anything in private. VB   And she was doing dentistry in private. EN   We had a very small, very poor house. When I remember our house and the bad conditions. My mother worked every day morning until night. VB   When you told me that you went to boarding school, you went to boarding school, do you have sisters or brothers? EN   I have three sisters. VB   Did they go to boarding school or just you? EN   No, they went to regular school. VB   Did your mother have to pay to send you to boarding school? EN   No. Just a small amount, just small payment. VB   Were all four of your grandparents Jewish? EN   Yes. VB   Do you remember them practicing any Judaism? Can you tell me what they did, what you remember? EN   Before each meal they prayed. Saturday they went to synagogue and we observed the holidays. We had special dishes for holidays. It was very interesting as I remember. There was some some plays and jokes. VB   Did you go to synagogue on the holidays? EN   No. You know, actually, in Soviet period it was not good to go to synagogue. Nobody prohibited but at the same time, but for Jewish people who were Communists, it was prohibited. Even if you go to Memorial Day. If your relative died, if Jewish Communists came, it was very dangerous. But no, that's why all the old people usually go to the synagogue because it is not dangerous for them. Commonly it was dangerous. VB   So from the time that you were a boy, in your own home, was there any Judaism practiced or just at your grandparents? EN   You know, it was more strong When my grandparents practiced. It became less with my parents and aunt and relatives, less. But it began again after the Soviet system collapsed in '85. Not dangerous. But since those days many Jewish people moved to Israel and here to United States and there are only a few people left. The synagogues are supported by American synagogues but there are no people. VB  Tell me about your home, your grandparents? T  I cannot tell you about the story of my family. I told you that my grandmother died . VB   That was your mother's mother, yes? T  Yes. And my grandfather, my mother's father, he was missing in World War II. So When my mother was 18, in 1944, her mother died of lung infection. You know, When I was a child, When I was little, sometimes I asked my mother about my grandmother but for some reason she didn't tell me a lot. But probably there was something with my grandfather missing or my grandmother had something wrong there, very difficult times. EN   You know, sorry Tatyana I would like to tell that it was really very dangerous to tell anybody about your parents in Soviet period. For example, my grandfather was in prison because he was considered to be a spy. German spy. It's funny now, but those times it was, he was in prison for several months, about six months. He had never told me about it. Only after he died was not dangerous to tell people he was in prison. That's why we thought that it is not worth, that good to tell people about your relatives. T  So that's probably why my mother was afraid to tell me some things. Her name was Maria and I saw some pictures of her, my mother had them. I didn't have a chance to meet my grandfather. My mother didn't have any knowledge of how he died. A lot of people were just missing and sent to camps. So unfortunately I don't know about my grandparents. My kids, they asked me, and I try to explain because I left home When I was 19 and it was in 1975. I don't feel like blaming my mother for keeping secret. I really missed knowing about family. VB   What about your father's family? T  My mother divorced him When I was a baby. VB   So you have no family history? Was your family Jewish? T  No, I'm not Jewish. My mother was Ukranian. When I went to Tashkent we got married and we had a traditional Jewish marriage, so I got the Judaism. I liked it and we were with our relatives during Jewish holidays. EN   And my relatives like Tatyana. VB   Why not? EN   Because she liked traditions. It was very interesting to her, especially about Jewish culture which has some difference. Because they came from Iran, Afghanistan, to central Asia. We tell our sons about our family, about our history, because we believe it is important for them to know what we know. We tell what we know, we tell them. There is not to hide now, it is not dangerous to tell. VB   Do they consider themselves Jewish, the boys? EN   They went to Jewish camps, religious camps. VB   Here? EN   No. VB   Really! T  It was started in 1990. EN   Yes. T  First time our oldest son went to summer camp and it was supported by Israel. EN   American Jewish religious organizations from New York. He was happy. He came and prayed, he learned many interesting things. He changed a lot. He became very serious. It was funny. Some things weren't exactly new. He had some new feelings and he liked it. VB   And now that they're here in the States? EN   Now here he goes to University High School. He entered there because he studied very good in Russian, special linguistic classes. But now he since we came here he has changed a lot because of age, because of moving, because of having a new life. As for my younger one, Misha. He is quite different, he is a very socialized person. Likes everybody and everybody likes him. Continue with the interview with El-Notan and Tatyana Abramov Return to the New Americans Oral Histories homepage